Building Companies That Last: Strategies for Sustainable Growth | Matt Kovacs

Matt Kovacs:

That's what clients want. They understand. They look to us and say, "Okay, you're in the trenches. What do you got? What's going on? How can I understand it better? And if I need other agencies or other factors, tell me who's out there as well."

Because that's where, back to the point of the trust and the relationships, they see that you're actually in it versus just, hey, I think this happened. I think we did it. I don't know. They really want to know that they can trust it and also feel confident that the work's getting done from all factors.

Nick McLean:

Welcome to Ambition. I'm your host, Nick McLean. Entrepreneurs are impatient, but success requires a long-term vision. It takes time. I think this paradox is part of what makes their journeys so compelling.

Matt Kovacs, president and lead strategist at Blaze PR has mastered the art of taking time. Taking time to go the extra mile for the business, taking time to understand a problem before working on a solution and taking time to really connect with his team and their clients.

Matt's intention and attention to detail has slowly grown this boutique public relations agency into a powerhouse offering creative media strategies backed by veteran practitioners. With 13 years of experience at Blaze, Matt has seen the landscape of public relations shift in response to social media and influencers.

During an era where trends have the power to both dictate and dominate the way brands approach PR, Matt stays focused on consistency and strategy and that counter-cultural decision is backed not just by his wealth of experience, but the results to prove it.

Matt, to get things started here, would you mind just telling your story, the Blaze story? I think all of our listeners would love to hear it.

Matt Kovacs:

I graduated from USC in communications. Really, that's such a broad element. But then worked in PR and marketing really through my career and then made my way to Blaze 13 years ago now. So really, you look at it from the key learnings really as PR has evolved from the traditional media and really knowing all the reporters and hanging out with them all the way through now where it's influencers and more digital media.

So it's been an interesting journey. I think really working on brands that are national or aspire to be national from startups all the way through billion-dollar Fortune 500 companies. So I think there's an aspect of really what the PR elements that I've learned and then those strategies and then how they work throughout that are really, I think, appealing for brands just from a results standpoint and also to really put the spotlight on them.

Nick McLean:

It's really interesting. I apologize to my listeners for having to hear this again, but sometimes I'll talk to business owners, not often, but sometimes they will tell me that they haven't done any marketing or advertising. They're almost proud that they've gotten the business to the level that they have without doing that. And I get that, that's good.

But my perspective, I don't share this all the time, is always just if you're at four million now, you could be at 10, 12, 15 maybe if you had an effective marketing strategy in place. Now, I'm sure you encounter some of that pushback in some of your prospective clients or maybe you don't. Would you mind talking about that a little bit?

Matt Kovacs:

Yeah, I think what's interesting when we start any campaign, we say, okay, what is the end goal? Are you looking to be acquired? Are you looking to acquire companies? Are you looking to sell? Are you looking for investment? Are you looking just to brand build?

So I think that can help really dictate that type of perspective. And we've worked that through our campaigns. We worked with Honest Tea, and then Coke acquired them. And then Kavita, and then Pepsi acquired them. And then a you Theory and Jameson, Supplements had purchased them.

So you look at how these acquisitions happen through these times. It's a way that the elements of what a PR and marketing campaign can do and the acquisitions that happen, how that is from ratcheted up because it's not only just getting your name in the news, it's really about thought leadership, it's extra positioning, it's differentiating versus other brands.

And a lot of our campaigns have that B2B and B2C standpoint in that we want to make sure that buyers and retailers are seeing what's going on with the brands, it's appealing and they know that they're being marketed to the end consumer so that there's a confidence if I'm going to put you in store, if I'm going to invest in your brand, that you're going to be marketing to make sure that there's an end game, that we understand that everything reverts back to sales.

Nick McLean:

Absolutely. One recurring theme on the show is just the struggle between or the strategic choice you have to make being more of a niche player versus a generalist. And I would certainly say that the Blaze has gone down the path of being more targeted and focused.

Can you talk to me about how you made that decision, why you made it, where you would be if you didn't? Just really would love to hear about that.

Matt Kovacs:

I think an interesting element within that when you look at it from a perspective of really we're a lifestyle agency, but that has so many different meanings, but we really try and stay focused of really where does our end consumer live for consumers?

So as people walk about their day, they're going to run into our consumers from starting with whatever coffee they have, energy drinks, what types of foods they eat for breakfast, where they go for lunch, what types of stores they shop at.

So it's really making sure as we speak to that media what can be broad enough in that we're speaking to, again, the influencers, the business media, but it's a number of ways that are appealing in that we're not trying to be everything to everyone. But we're also not so focused.

There's some agencies that only do restaurants well, you're only going to talk to maybe what 50 media, a hundred media through the course of your campaign. And I think the broadness of it gives the effect that you're able to have that focus because you understand that, back to the point of the original conversations of, what is your goal?

If it is to just raise brand awareness, there's a number of things we can do. Is it to do a PR stunt? Is it to really have that big spike or do you want to have a sustainable approach that you're able to grow that within the category and then thus really bring that spotlight forth so that you're having that acquisition mentality, whatever it is.

So I think there's an element that those conversations happen with a client so they understand from the original scope, okay, here's what our goals are, here's why we're being focused and here's what these interviews and placements mean because it's not just placements for placements' sake.

We're launching and you get in New York Times, but you're not national yet, you may not have the distribution, you may not be ready for that type of placement. So we really look at it from that standpoint so that we can pull those levers when it makes sense.

Nick McLean:

It's interesting, I get pitched a lot by these media placement specialists. They'll say, "Hey, I'll get you into Forbes." Or, "I'll get you into all these publications." And my initial response is, "Oh, that's cool. It'd be great to see my name in a Forbes article or whatever." But my next immediate thought is, okay, how am I really going to leverage that? And I personally don't know.

So it has to be, I would think, a key part of your strategy is not just the relationships, but figuring out how to leverage all the good work you do so that you're not just getting your clients in a publication or a TV show or whatever, you're doing that and then three or four more steps to really capitalize on it.

Matt Kovacs:

Yeah, and I think it's interesting, to your point, is that the placements of how you can merchandise and use those, and we do it in a number of ways. One is through our activity reports and those quarterly reports being able to give a client that's sort of phone book size, here's everything that we've done, but also it's a way that they can share that with their stakeholders, with retailers and buyers to say, look at all the marketing and places we've been.

Also, there's ways, especially with social media now and LinkedIn, ways to really merchandise that and effectively share that through your audiences and those ways so that people see it and they understand it and it builds that credibility. And it's not so much you saying from the top of the mountains, look how great we are. Look what other people are saying. And it's that third party validation.

And then the other layer to this is that to your point, it's great if you get in that Forbes piece, but what does that mean and how do we merchandise that? How does that Forbes piece get you in more media, your local business journals, the other aspects around it?

So it is really the overall approach so that you're not just that one-off coverage and then it falls off. We don't want it to be a spike and die. You want that momentum and to keep carrying it. And I think that's where the relationship really carries with the clients to understand that their goals, their timelines, what are those factors that they have?

They may have key trade shows twice a year, so how do we build up to that so that as people are at the show, they're like, "Oh, I've read about you." Or, "I've seen you." Have those types of elements. And then I think the other thing is understanding that it does take a village.

Within a company, no matter how small or large, those placements can be shared and permeated throughout everyone's LinkedIn, everyone's social media. It's that sort of collaboration so that people feel a part of the conversation and part of the team, that it wasn't just, oh, the PR of the marketing department got some articles. It's our whole company. And I think that's a big part of that sort of internal corporate com to really tell that story as well.

Nick McLean:

Hearing your responses and knowing all the good work that you do. I know that you personally and your team are very good at what you do, but just being good at what you do isn't really a strategy. But you can have a lot of great players on the team and without a strategy, the team's not going to win the game.

This isn't the complete definition of strategy or whatnot, but I often think of strategy as doing different things than a competitor or doing the same things differently. If you would agree with me, that's one way to think about strategy. What does Blaze do? What are different things that Blaze does versus the competitors or what are the similar activities that Blaze does differently?

Matt Kovacs:

I agree with you in that point. I think that you look at it from through a new lens, and especially as we talked about in the beginning. The media landscape changes all the time, and that's something that I think there's still some agencies that are stuck in the mud and they still think I'm going to get on the local newspaper, local TV and the local radio, and that's all I need to do.

How we start our campaigns I think is really different and we pull this from really different industries, we'll do a media perception audit, then we go and we actually put together a series of questions about the category and about maybe our client or the brand, and then we go and we flip the script and we interview media and we say, "Hey, we're working with this brand or in this category, I'd love to interview you and get your perspective. Obviously, you're a gatekeeper, you're being pitched all the time. We'll compensate you for this as well."

We honor their time. It's not just a freebie. And then we walk them through a series of questions and we ask them, what's the category look like? Where did they see growth? What are some of the trends? Because they're a part of it in a deeper level. We get that report back, we analyze it, we give our clients all the verbatim so they can see from what everyone said, from everyone's pregnant pauses, through everything so they're able to understand how the questions were answered, but then you really analyze it.

And then because many clients, they're in the bubble, be it from a startup or even a long-standing brand, it's good to take that perspective and we try and do it every other year with a client just to really look and get a baseline. And then that gives us, from a PR perspective, the ability to understand knowing that we're going to go back to these same media.

And the goal you want to get is that 30 to 50 media that really take the time and go through the questions and then you're able to say, "Okay, hey Nick, remember we did that survey in that interview? I can answer all your questions with brand doing this and this." We took your feedback and they actually pivoted and they're doing something different.

From a media standpoint. It's a way that you say, okay, this is actually newsworthy now this for my readers, listeners, whatever it is, I can take this and now it makes sense, versus just, "Hey, we launched this new product, do you want to write about it?" It just falls flat. So we try and really bring that to the table and I think clients can appreciate that because that gives them...

Because PR does have, we're sort of in that gray science area. Yes, you get coverage, here's the impressions, you feel good, but it's not that direct sales medium, but having that baseline, it's a way for us to say, here's what is actually happening in this category as you go forth, and here's ways that we can make sure that we're not missing the mark.

Nick McLean:

I think it's really interesting. When talking to owners of services businesses, I often like to make the comparison to manufacturing because I think at the high level it's a stark contrast, but when you peel away some of the layers of the onion, it's somewhat similar.

And as it relates to manufacturing, sometimes what I see companies doing is they'll buy a brand new piece of equipment and go out to their customers and say, "Hey, customer, look at this brand new piece of equipment. Isn't this great?" And the customer is, at first, maybe asking why they even told them this. And then the second is, "Oh, okay, great. So are my prices going to come down?"

The point of this story, it's going in the exact opposite way that you just described. Instead of going to their customers and asking, what services can we provide? How can we do better? Oh, we're just going to go buy this equipment and then talk about how great we are.

Matt Kovacs:

I totally agree. And I think that's something, to your point, we market that in that respect is that we're trying to solve the problems and give answers and almost speed up the process versus starting a campaign and you go those first 30 days, 45 days, 90 days and you're waiting.

But this gives us, it really condenses a lot of that time and it's part of the process, it's part of our strategy. It's not like you can buy this or you can buy that or that because when you do that type of element, you're missing out on the full strategy.

Nick McLean:

Now, I understand that sometimes being immodest is difficult for some folks, but from Four Pillars' perspective, we've looked at a lot of marketing firms both in terms of potential acquisition candidates, but also just in terms of potential vendors that we would want to work with to help us with our marketing function.

And what I will tell you is that we come across a lot of companies with five, maybe 10, maybe as many as 15 employees, but finding a marketing firm that has 50, a hundred, 200 employees really means, in my view, that they figured out a way to burst past that plateau and accelerate their growth. I would say Blaze is definitely in that category.

I'm not asking you to give away the company's secrets or anything, but could you just talk a little bit about how you've been able to burst past that plateau of five or 10 million in revenue and really get to a higher level?

Matt Kovacs:

I think for us, we really look at it from the culture first, and I think that's one of the things that we're always proud about is that we win those best places to work type culture surveys and stuff.

So in this past year alone, we had PR week, LA Business Journal and then the Inc. Best Places to Work. And I think those are things that you look at. The work and the results really again, stand for themselves and a lot of what we talked about from the strategies, but you really have to understand the team dynamic and really how that works.

And I think that's where, from a culture standpoint, it's really important to us, especially obviously coming through the pandemic, the hybrid work model now and understanding what that means and how you can collaborate and feel it be virtually or in office or if it's that hybrid effect that you're able to understand that the Blaze and management supports you.

We're helping people to grow, we're helping people to learn. You don't have the camaraderie as much that starts that has to build and learn, and I think that's part of what we try and do is really bring that to life. We have obviously the lunch and learns and all those things, but we have offices in Santa Monica and Santa Barbara, so we make sure for Santa Barbara, we go up there, they come down to us.

There's ways that you can collaborate and make it feel interesting and also that it's a team effect and not that we're siloed and often these different satellites. It's really those elements, I think, come to life. And I think the other thing is we try to empower our teams. I think that's the biggest thing that I've learned through the years. From interns all the way through management is, how are you empowered?

How can you solve these problems and also have that type of relationship with our client where they really trust you, they understand it, they're not second guessing or judging. They really are part of this process, and I think that's what's really helped us to grow and maintain those client relationships.

We have clients that were AOR for five years, 10 years, but in that aspect, and a number of them are crossing that seven year threshold this year. So you have those abilities where the relationship, it takes you only so far. Obviously, you have to have the results, but there's the trust factor as well.

Nick McLean:

Yeah, the trust factor is huge for sure. As I think about the culture that I try to instill at Four Pillars, one of the four pillars is servant leadership, and I really love it as taking away the obstacles so that your team can perform and whether you want to call that empowerment or servant leadership, I think there's a lot of similarities between those two. I think it sounds like you're agreeing with that.

Matt Kovacs:

A hundred percent, yeah. And I think especially what's interesting to that point is as Gen Z is starting to fill the workload and the workforce now, it's the ways to really manage them as well. And each sort of generation has been different.

I think that's been an interesting angle as they come out of the pandemic and as they're graduating or as they're maybe two, three years into their careers, it's really an important way to really manage them and give them the right tools to feel confident and that they're not feeling that they're not part of a team.

Nick McLean:

So there's always going to be similarities and differences among why companies grow and why they hold them back. I mentioned that I think that your desire or your decision to focus was consistent with a lot of the companies we talked to.

However, one area that came up, or one comment that you made that at least at its surface appears to be a little bit dissimilar is your willingness to get in the trenches with individual customers as opposed to letting your team manage that.

What I mean by that is oftentimes I'll talk to a CEO and either they'll say this or it'll be my impression that really they need to take a step back and let their team do the work because they're doing too much.

Could you just talk to me a little bit about how you balance the desire to be involved with the customer but not doing too much and not giving your team the runway they need?

Matt Kovacs:

Yeah, I think what I've learned through the years, and again, managing a lot of different teams and through different life cycles if you will, is that it is that balance. You do want to manage and let the team really run a lot of the... Once the strategies are in place, let them run a lot of the campaigns because they don't want to feel micromanaged. They don't want to feel like they're competing with yourself or with other peoples.

So I've learned to really do that and then have good touch points and really understand where things are from a status standpoint. But I will say, on the flip side, and again, some of this was happening prior to the pandemic, making sure that you're in the trenches as well, I think goes a long way for a number of factors.

One is, you don't want to have a game of telephone if a pitch, your campaign's not working and you're having a conversation, be it with the CEO, your account lead, whoever on the client side, you don't want to say, let me go ask this person to this person because then you feel too further from the actual work.

But it's also, I think been great because it keeps me in the trenches itself because it has changed. Again, when I first started it was other reporters, you hung out with them at the bars, that was your friends, but now it is, you're dealing with digital media and those influencers that are 22 years old, they have a manager that's 23.

You can't overlook that. You have to really understand where people are thinking, and I think that's been an important factor in it. And I will say that the team appreciates that because they understand, I understand their struggles probably a little bit deeper as well because I've done it.

And then that helps us as a team to be able to ideate and say, okay, what are some strategies or things we could try? Let's really brainstorm of how we can solve this and try and be back to the point, be a little different, be able to report those understandings because that's what clients want. They understand.

They look to us and say, "Okay, you're in the trenches. What do you got? What's going on? How can I understand it better? And if I need other agencies or other factors, tell me who's out there as well because that's where, back to the point of the trust and the relationships."

They see that you're actually in it versus just, hey, I think this happened. I think we did it. I don't know. They really want to know that they can trust it and also feel confident that the work's getting done from all factors.

Nick McLean:

As you think about yourself as a leader of the company in the earlier days after you established some good customer accounts and you had a team working for you, I'm sure either your leadership style or how you thought about the business has had to change at least a little bit as the company has grown.

To all the other business owners out there that perhaps haven't burst past that plateau yet, do you have any advice or counsel to them to think about how they might need to change parts of what they do, how they might need to change their leadership style, those types of concepts?

Matt Kovacs:

Yeah, I think it's interesting in that growing through this networking was always a big part of it. You wanted to meet other brands, other clients, other agencies, and then you get to a point where you're networked out, you've met everyone you can at that point or at that level.

And I'd say there was a pause, but then I think getting to that point as a leader, being able to network with other leaders I think has been extremely helpful and impactful because you're able to take a step back, hear other people's problems, helped them solve them, and I think that's helped me as well.

I think the other factor is, it's also as with age and the maturity, you understand to be more calm and to listen more. I think that's something in my probably earlier career, it's that hustle that I'm a quick start, so it's okay, let's do it. Let's solve the problem, let's go.

And I surrounded myself now, I have a lot more fact-finders a lot more people that are like, "Okay, let me do the research. Let's look at it holistically." Versus just raising your hand saying, "Yep, we can do it." Let's break down that wall. And I think that's been a key learning and I think it also makes for a better organization when you have different people that come in and can look at it from that perspective.

What I've enjoyed, we've brought people from all over the country, the world, because they have all their different point of views and they also absorb media and information differently. So we're able to look through a different lens, and I think at the end of the day, that helps obviously, results for clients, it helps for just the overall strategies of how they can work because we're not doing the same thing for every brand.

There are different nuances and abilities to change, and they appreciate that. And I think that's something that I've learned as a leader, and I've shared that with, again, other agency owners, other clients that when it's not talking about just the work, how do you manage your team, how do you do this?

The more you can learn and understand because everyone's going through different factors of challenges and really taking those in and incorporating them into those learnings. I think it's been extremely helpful.

Nick McLean:

You hit on something there that really excited me, but I need to lead up to it a little bit. Oftentimes when I'm talking to business owners that are considering selling, a lot of them build up the business perhaps maybe a little bit more than they should, and I'm listening for consistent answers, not just to the same question, but consistent answers to seemingly disparate questions.

Now, earlier I asked you a question and your response was that you really seek to understand what the customer needs, where the customer can go. Then in the second answer or the answer that you just gave there, you mentioned how you need to slow down and really understand the situation.

That really hits home to me, whether you've been doing this your whole career or not, that you're really taking the mindset of seek first to understand as opposed to, hey, we've been successful. What's been successful in the past? This is what we're going to do for you and it's going to be successful. Very refreshing.

Matt Kovacs:

And I think that's something that, again, it's through learning, it's through age, it's through maturity and I think through some of the pandemics, seeing other people's mistakes of what happened and not really having to panic that you're going to get through it, there's opportunities.

And that's part of that point, again, in the early stage of networking and building that sort of base and then now being able to activate, tap into it, have people that you can look at and trust and understand that those relationships go further because it's not transactional. It's very much about, okay, how can we do this? How can we really learn from each other? And I think that's been really refreshing, and I think it's rare.

Maybe if you try and start, I have to do that sometimes, so you have that reticence from people saying, "Oh, we're learning, we're talking. You're looking for anything from me." It's really about giving and just being more human than anything else. And I think sometimes those things have been lost through the years, but I think that's something that we try...

And I try and instill that again from the most junior person to understand that, all the way through clients is that let's try and really connect on that level because that's when things get tough. You look again, like I've said, through the pandemic, those elements you were able to really work through and be smart together.

Nick McLean:

Well, again, I got to give you praise because whenever I asked you about the being in the trenches versus being more removed, it was a very customer or client-centric answer. However, you've also talked about the importance of culture. I guarantee you, your junior staff learns more from the times that you interact directly and far more than if they just get an email from you, a conversation or whatever.

So again, I like it whenever different components of a strategy all interplay and work together, and I can clearly see that's what's going on with your personal style as well as the company as a whole.

Matt Kovacs:

I think the other thing that's interesting now too is that you get the element of, oh, you're the old guard and your ways, but as you learn and sometimes those old things come back again, you're able to change them and make them better and do it with a younger staff and younger generation so that it does become something new.

And I think that's been exciting for me to be able to see those things. You look now with the NIL world with athletes, we're dabbling in that for many clients and how some of those discussions and just elements are very reminiscent of the early stages of bloggers and influencers and how that can work and what that can do for brands. So it's fun to be a part of that.

And again, I think as this category and this career as well as the whole PR business, how it changes and evolves and we're able to be, I think, fluid in a way that's meaningful.

Nick McLean:

We've all heard the phrase or the question and answer, why do you do it that way? It's the way it's always been done. I think a corollary or another question is, why don't we do it this way? We tried that way and it failed. Hearing your answer and the fact that maybe a few years ago it was done this way, it's different now. It doesn't mean that it's not going to work again and whatnot. And so I think that's important.

My personal opinion is that it's important as a leader to understand why doing it a certain way didn't work in the past with the understanding that perhaps at times change as you tweak the process a little bit, what didn't work in the past might work again in the future.

Matt Kovacs:

And look, we have a number of times where these campaigns, you have all good intentions, you're putting all the plans together, you think it's going to hit and launch, and you go and it falls flat. Not that it fails, but it just falls flat. You're getting the average results. And that's where we're able to say, I think for our standpoint, being the size of an agency, you're able to say, okay, timeout.

And having the relationship with the client, having those types of things where it's not this layers and levels and say, hey, we're going to try this and here's why. And they're like, "Yeah, that makes sense. Thank you for not going three weeks, four weeks of a flat campaign. What are some things that we can change?" And I think that's where you have that respect and also the trust because there's many places where they just say, we did it.

Here's the month's report and it did this. I think those are things you have to look at because the failures are many times where the next campaign can be even better. And I think also that the clients respect that you didn't try and pull one over on them or do something that's disingenuous, that you're able to really say, okay, we're trying different things.

And a number of our brands that are that challenger brand mentality, their dollars have to work tenfold, so they want to do different things that are different. And also, they have the abilities to change on a dime because they're not, you'll be holden to, again, the larger elements yet their goal is to get there. And I think that's where we can shepherd and take them through that.

Nick McLean:

Sorry to bring this back to manufacturing, but a number of companies in our portfolio are manufacturing, and some of them are contract manufacturers, meaning they don't have a proprietary product. Now, I know marketing is totally different than trying to sell a widget, but come on, I'm going to hold you to task. You're a marketer.

So as you think about a contract manufacturer with no proprietary product that is building to the print of their customer, at a high level, how would you start to think about effective conversations with potential customers when you don't have that product that you can say, this product is better than anything else. They're really selling their capabilities, their ability to deliver on costs and quality, those types of things. Can you just give me your thoughts? I know I'm putting you on the spot, but-

Matt Kovacs:

Yeah, no, I think, look, we find that many times, and especially I think when we look at different industries, if we're approached by different categories, we were approached through another relationship with a lithium mining company. Again, 180 from anything we've done. My team is not in tilled, that has not what they've been trained to do through these years.

But when you look at it and say, okay, let's take a step back, they want a drilling contract. There's obviously local PR, there's jobs, there's media, there's energy, there's the green factor. So there's ways that we're able to approach it and say, here's how we would look at it. And I think through that lens, that was a way that they were like, "Okay, this sounds interesting." Because they wanted to be different, so that's why they looked at a different agency.

And then from there, we got them on 60 minutes and all these different things that are important. But I think that's a factor where you can look at it from the blocking and tackling of PR and then how does that go into effect for a new brand, a new category, and feel confident you can do it. There's the fake it till you make it. But I think we had the case studies and the storylines, we were able to tell them to say, this is an approach that would take because it does make sense in this world.

And I think that's where we had those abilities. Have we gone after more green type energy brands? No, I think this was probably the anomaly and where still learning, but I think it's a factor of where you can feel, to your point, the manufacturing aspect. We're doing the same sort of aspects, but just in a different way. And I think that's something that we look at and that's how we approach any opportunity.

Is this going to be, is it something we have confidence in? Are we going to grow as an agency? Are we going to grow as people? And I think that's where, back to the point of having the team approach there, I have many of my team that will raise their hand and say, yeah, I'd love to work on it. It's interesting. It's different.

And I think that's the beauty of it, is that you're not just in, okay, I'm doing today, I do this beverage. Tomorrow is that beverage, and then Thursday is that one. So you have that ability to have some difference.

Nick McLean:

That's great. That's great. Another topic I like to hit on, not necessarily always learning there, but in my career, failure has been a constant companion. I wish that were not the case, but it's the facts of the matter.

Can you just talk a little bit about failure in general, both as it's impacted you as a leader, as it's impacted your firm as a whole, maybe some of your team members. Just talk a little bit about how failure has impacted you and your career.

Matt Kovacs:

Yeah, I think what's interesting is that you look at, especially coming out of the pandemic, I think before that I think from some of the failures was it's really what does your team stand for and talk about the growth of your team. But I think that's some abilities where I've seen some ways to grow.

And again, back to the point of culture where we really shifted the approach. There was that sort of hustle and it was all about growth and about let's get as many clients as we can. And I think that was where, from a failure standpoint, really burning out a team.

And the team feeling that it was always onto the next one and the next one and the next one, versus taking that step back holistically as everyone, not just me, but as the C-suite to say, okay, let's look at it as what do we want to do and how can we really approach this and how do we change our brand, our website, our thinking, even just the way we communicate.

And I think that was something that we took from that sort of hustle culture and that element that it just wasn't really resonating and you were having the team was really, it was the cliche PR of two years and they jumped to the next agency where we've able to-

Nick McLean:

As best you can.

Matt Kovacs:

You pump the breaks. We've been able to have team now that it's a good core group of people that have been here upwards of five years together, which in PR, is a lifetime. But it's something that I think people feel appreciated. They feel they understand it.

And it's also that as best you can, the balance, because obviously PR has 24 hour news cycle and there's always weekend events and stuff, but I think that's something that was a key learning from the way to look at it of growing an agency because you can do that, but you're just going to burn out and burn everyone out around you, and then you're left holding the bag.

So I think that was a big key understanding. And that happened probably within the first three years or so. They were like, "Okay, this is not going to be sustainable. This is not going to work, so this is how we need to fix it."

Nick McLean:

To paraphrase what you said there, it sounds like at the beginning you were growing because you wanted to grow. Growth was exciting. Maybe it was the proverbial drug, if you will. I equate that to being focused on growing revenues and growing net income, which maybe is exciting for the ownership group, the board directors, et cetera, et cetera. It's hard to get the team really excited about that.

And how I would say that maybe you guys shifted is instead of focusing on just the headline numbers, it was more about a focus on the product, a focus on the customer, and using the best quality, the highest delivering teams in order to show that we are growing as opposed to just, oh, we picked up five new clients, that means we're successful.

Matt Kovacs:

Yeah, I agree with that. And I think also the clients can tell when you are strapped too thin and you're not invested in them and that way, and that was something that, to your point, we took that step back, we got the team rallied around it, you were able to say, okay, this is what's important, and let's grow naturally versus just trying to grab as much as we can off the table.

Nick McLean:

It's interesting you say that. It's not a marketing firm, but I've definitely worked with firms before where they do a good job, but you can just tell they are in growth mode and are stretched a little bit too thin. And for me, as the customer, on the one hand, I'm thinking I should probably stick with them because if they're growing so fast, they're doing the right things.

But on the other hand, I'm thinking, but are they really doing the right things? Because I feel like their service is slipping a little bit. So even as the customer, sometimes you feel that push and pull when you're dealing with a growth company that is perhaps growing for the wrong reasons.

Matt Kovacs:

And I think that's where those abilities to have those check-ins with clients, and this is what's happening, is it working, reporting back so there's an understanding, because many times you're dealing with maybe one or two people, that's your entrée into the rest of the company. They might be saying everything's cool, but if it's permeating out that people feel like you're just getting sloppy, you're missing deadlines, you're not communicating like you used to, that's the kiss of death if you hear that.

And I think also the other kiss of death is when from an agency standpoint, if you are pointing fingers back at the client, oh yeah, you didn't launch anything new, so it was harder for us to get coverage, it's more about what are the abilities that we can do to help grow that, create news, really look at it from all the toolbox, but also what's going on in the world to help clients be relevant and stay on top of the media's point of view.

Nick McLean:

You hit on something here that is directly relevant to one of our portfolio companies. What was going on is we had one main contact that we were working with, and there was no overt statements that, oh, you're not doing very well for us. We're thinking about switching vendors, et cetera, et cetera. But it wasn't really a warm relationship and we weren't getting a lot of new quoting opportunities.

And so what the team did was we really just tried to find more stakeholders within this by doing essentially a survey with them to learn more. And what we found out is that they aren't happy with us and they were trying to find a new supplier because we couldn't keep up in terms of growth and capacity.

And so your comment about trying to get more of the team involved so that you fully understand the situation and what the customer thinks is I think relevant, not just to a PR firm. I think it's relevant to almost any business really.

Matt Kovacs:

And I think the other thing that in doing that is to understand other stakeholders and people within the company. I think it takes the onus sometimes off your direct contact because they feel like they have to be the town crier and report it back out to their masses. And many times, they may miss the headline or bury the headline, and we want to make sure we have the abilities to do that.

And some of it is, again, it's back to maybe somewhat pre-pandemic, but going to their offices, doing things in front of them, creating just relationship networking things, go to a baseball game, whatever it is, whatever the clients are into or those abilities, it's a way that you can have that relationship that's deeper than just your one-on-one day-to-day, and I think that's where we've seen that ability and that's what I've tried to instill in the rest of the team.

There's so much that the current, back to the Gen Zs, emailing everyone, maybe talking on a Zoom and that's it, and they never think beyond that. And it's more about, hey, these people are people, let's meet them or let's talk to them. Let's build beyond that.

And I think as much as they're being taught in schools and in college about PR where again, I was never taught that much back in my day, but there's that the human element that I think is a big factor to it because that's going to help really engage and make that a better overall relationship at the end of the day.

Nick McLean:

I completely agree. Throughout our various businesses, we'll encounter folks that via email, they're real nasty. On the phone, they're a little bit nicer. Then you get them in person and it's like you're their best friend.

And there's a huge takeaway from that, and my personal perspective is that some of the younger folks that I've worked with, you really got to motivate them and show them that picking up the phone is better and meeting in person is even better than talking on the phone.

Matt Kovacs:

And I'm not trying to bash young people. It's more about teaching them because where I always talk about it too is you can understand PR from all your book learning, but it's that human element because they might have the worst day ever, their kid might be sick, their boss may have yelled at them, you're dealing with their emotions and the emails aren't going to break through that.

But picking up the phone and having a conversation and diffusing and just talking about it that way, and to your point, having that in person where there's not this rush of, okay, we have an hour to get through a call and there's 500 things, and then it becomes a speed race versus, hey, let's sit and talk. Let's go through it. We can spend a little bit more time on this or less on that.

I think those are important factors that really help solidify, I think the growth and just the long-term strategy with the brand.

Nick McLean:

So last question, just want to bring it back to AI just because so many people are interested in AI. I think a lot of folks would say marketing, they're going to get killed by AI because all this content can just be created. However, I think AI, you can use it a certain amount, but I think your job is secure. What's your take on that?

Matt Kovacs:

I think what's funny within AI is that AI hasn't gotten there yet because it isn't just... AI, yes, could they rate a press release, but it's going to have way too many aspects to it. It doesn't feel like it's really the news. They can't pitch media yet, so you still have the abilities to do that.

It's about understanding analysts and just forward-thinking. It's great when that, I need a quick... I need a LinkedIn paragraph for the launch of this. That thing can get, but it's still, from an AI standpoint, I think PR is still, for the most part, relatively dialed into it. Not safe, but not where it's never going to matter. I think that's something that is just, it's more interesting right now, and it's the abilities that it can help save time.

That's the way we've looked at it for people to look. Put a press release in there and have it, review it and give a synopsis or here's an article, see how it can boil it down for you. There's things that it can do faster, but I think it misses the point, especially when you're trying to break news.

Nick McLean:

You can't really, I think, get to the hearts of the people you are trying to reach. It's still a human emotion that maybe if you listen to some folks, it'll get there eventually, but I guess that remains to be seen.

Matt Kovacs:

Yeah, and I agree. We look at it and there's ways that it can be used for good, but it's also, it is the lazy man's out, is it for evil? But it's, I think a way that we're still, we dabble in it. We have policies in place about it internally about ways to use it, but I think it's important just to be cognizant of it.

I'm still shocked there's clients that when you talk about it, they're like, "Oh, I don't dabble in that. I don't know." Say, "Hey, have you used ChatGPT?" And they look at it like you're speaking Greek. So it's really that people can start to understand that it's starting to permeate, but making sure that we're not left behind.

Nick McLean:

I often think about the quote by Mark Cuban. There are the companies that use AI, and there are the companies that don't, really serving as a warning that the companies that don't are not going to be around for long. And I think we still got some time before it's adopted universally, but the pace of technological acceptance, if you will, I think it's only going to increase.

Matt Kovacs:

Totally. I agree.

Nick McLean:

That's pretty much it from my side. The only other thing is if there are any topics that you feel like I missed or that I didn't do a good job bringing up, certainly want to give you some airtime if you'd like.

Matt Kovacs:

No, I think this was great. We covered, I think a lot of the places I thought we would, and I think it's important to make sure it's all there. But no, this was great. I enjoyed it, and I thank you again.

Nick McLean:

Matt's slow and steady approach is a great reminder that you don't have to burn yourself out to see growth in your business. I was inspired by his leadership style of getting in the trenches and knowing what's going on with your clients and employees. He's not just the face of a company. He's someone everyone gets to know on a personal level.

Blaze PR's success is a combination of determination, hard work, and past failures that are all fuel for the entrepreneurial spirit. It's easy to see with leaders that share their experiences and knowledge like Matt, the whole team becomes stronger.

Always remember the human element in business. Taking the time to get to know the people around you and the problems and stories they carry will not only help you achieve your goals, it will make your life more meaningful. If you were inspired by this episode of Ambition, please share it with a friend or colleague. Thanks for listening.